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Tolerating Joy
[00:00:00] Rick: Tolerating Joy, a Real Skills Workshop. And it’s such an odd thing, isn’t it? This idea that we have to tolerate joy.
[00:00:11] Cathy: Oh yeah. We’re gonna ask some questions to get you started. Do you wanna introduce us and then we’ll, we’ll ask him some questions. Yeah. To kind of dig in.
[00:00:19] Rick: I’m Rick from ThrivingNow and I’m here with Cathy Vartuli from , ThrivingNow and The Joy Connection.
[00:00:26] Yeah. Your company name. Yes. , And I remember when you picked that and I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. I could use more connection to Joy.
[00:00:37] Cathy: Yeah. That was like 18 years ago when I picked that name. So,
[00:00:40] Rick: yeah, because there’s, there’s a challenge, isn’t there? And I think a lot of those challenges start in childhood.
[00:00:48] And so one of our first questions is.
[00:00:52] Cathy: Can you just invite you, just gently don’t, you don’t have to dig into things that are gonna be heart wrenching or really intense, but think for a moment of a time when you felt some joy as a kid. Just let see if something comes to the top sometime when you felt joyful and happy and just pause it right there.
[00:01:10] You don’t have to go further right now. Now someone shared not too odd for me. Joy’s a huge trigger for me. Making me get away from me feeling. Yeah. Well they always say we teach what we most need to, to learn. So a joy connection.
[00:01:26] Rick: Yeah. And it’s true for me too. I’ve, I’ve got one in mind. I remember going out riding my bike in the early morning before the family got up and uh, and.
[00:01:41] I, it just felt so good. I got to ride around the neighborhood and it was a beautiful morning and I was just so awake. Yeah. I love that I, I came back so full and then, and it’s the end then. Right? But for, for this process, see if there’s something that, you know, gave you joy. Hanging out with my more permissive grandparents.
[00:02:14] Cathy: Okay, so someone’s already jumping to the, the, the next step. So you’re great. You’re, you’re foreshadowing. Before we get there, just if you can think about that moment of joy you had mine. I think of, there was a time when I was just laying under a tree on a blanket when I was like five. I think I was homesick or something, but it was a lovely day and my mom had put a blanket out and I was laying there watching the shadows and the leaves and stuff, and it just like was such a peaceful moment for me.
[00:02:40] But when you think of that moment of joy before, don’t worry about where it’s going. You know, we’re just tolerating it for just a minute. See if you can notice, how does your body feel, like, what are the sensations in your body for this.
[00:02:55] Hmm. Shared, hanging out with our, my grandkids yesterday. Um, someone shared summer spent by the sea. If you can think of something when you’re younger, um, it’s great that you can experience and forgetting the sensations. You can definitely do something more recent. Um, but we are cur, one of the things we’re exploring is the early patterns we developed for it.
[00:03:14] So, um, but if you can just allow yourself to feel like, is your stomach tight or relaxed? Is it, do you feel warm or cold or cool? Or do you feel a lot of energy or like, what are the sensations in your body, not your thoughts about it, but the actual sensations you’re feeling in your body or doing somatic work.
[00:03:35] Rick: Now, if you’re energy sensitive, where is your energy field? Like, is it expanding? Is it already expanded? What’s the, what’s the vibe around your, your energy field? Yeah. If that’s, if that’s something you’re attuned to.
[00:03:53] Cathy: Yeah. Someone else shared. I remember feeling joy wearing a cute tie dye midriff top and cute white shorts and feeling pretty and cute and older.
[00:04:00] And I’m not gonna read the second part till we get to the next. Um, someone shared, I felt warmth in my heart, smile on my face, lighter in my body. Another personal liveness, connecting connection to all that is warm feelings all over my body. So just, you know, if you, you welcome. We’d love it when you’re sharing the chat 'cause it helps us like tune to where you’re at.
[00:04:20] But if you wanna just write it for yourself, you’re welcome to do that too. So, as much as I hate to do this, I think it’s really important for further growth in this as some people have already jumped to it, feeling that joy, remembering that joyful time. Remember what happened next. What if you either sustained the joy or something bad happened?
[00:04:41] Like what, what story do you tell yourself about this? Or what did you learn about your joy? Um. Like, did some, did you, did you start feeling anxious because you were feeling good? Or did someone start kind of frowning at you or did something bad happen? Just, and you may not have, it’s fine if it didn’t, but for most of the people showing up on this call, would imagine that there is some, uh, negative things that happened or you wouldn’t be on the Scott.
[00:05:13] Rick: And again, we’re, you know, one of the challenges here is that, and we’re gonna get into this, we’re gonna do Tapping on this. We’re going to, to acknowledge a lot of what I think a lot of us are having difficulty with. Because to stay in, as you said, just for a few seconds, I can stay in the feeling of the joy I felt moving my body when my.
[00:05:38] When my bicycle thing, I just kept going to the, the punchline. Um, and so I switched, I switched over to roller skating and that feeling of moving and flowing and ah, and I could stay with it for just a little bit. And then the punchlines come in and we’re seeing that in the comments. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right.
[00:06:00] It’s, it’s, it’s like, boom, we’re already in the No, no, no. We, we can’t stay there even decades later. What is happening in our energy and our psyche we’re, our memory system is going immediately to the trauma of it. Yeah. And I, and that’s why this is a skill. Mm-hmm. And it’s not a skill that means, um. We’re not gonna go there, but we can make increments.
[00:06:31] The process of just asking the question and reminding ourselves like, look, there is joy in my childhood. There was, there was actually longer than 10 seconds of joy riding the bicycle. I’m not that fast, right? Like, I rode, I rode probably 30 miles that morning when I woke up at, you know, four 50 or something.
[00:06:51] Got out there before dawn and rode all around the neighborhood. It was a big neighborhood my dad lived in. And um, you know, I went round and round and round and there was more than 10 seconds, but Wow. Holding onto that,
[00:07:03] Cathy: remembering that good feeling.
[00:07:05] Rick: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and these things, these patterns of, I feel joy.
[00:07:13] Better not, I feel joy, but I feel joy. Better not, um, that. Suppression is what the workshop is about. Yeah. And so if you’re finding yourself doing that, you’re in the right place. We’re with the right people. We totally get it.
[00:07:28] Cathy: Making gentle. You don’t have to pick the big 10 or 12 T trauma. Um, but then all lead, all, all roads, lead to Rome.
[00:07:35] In this case, someone shared it’s not gonna last. So if I don’t feel joy, then I’ll be safe. And that’s a, you understand the concept that came from, but I would invite you to go back to the memory that caused it. When we try to go with the general concept, we don’t have a lot of leverage to change it. They, it’s anchored in, I’ve been doing a lot of reading recently about how we store memories and the real impactful memories are stored in a, it’s a stimulus oriented memory where it’s very specific.
[00:08:04] And when we, we can go to a general concept, oh, it’s not safe, but it’s like vague. We don’t really have a way to shift it in our memory system, the subconscious part of it that’s driving us. But when we go to the actual thing that happened, the very specific thing that happened and process that, all of a sudden the hook kind of goes, we’re not pulling at the general theory, but the, the actual thing that hooked it for us.
[00:08:30] So I invite you if you have something that’s kind of general, go to how, when was the first time I decided that or what’s an impactful memory that Mount me decide that? And you’re welcome to share it here if you’d like. Um. I really love that the person shared 'cause it helped me, you know, gave us a chance to share that.
[00:08:49] Um, some, the person that shared about the tie-dyed the cute outfit is that they got attention that was unwanted and uncomfortable. So something negative happened from the joy. Um, someone shared, also shared route riding the bike probably, you know, like Rick was, um, enjoying after swimming with a friend and feeling fast and free, independent.
[00:09:10] And then their tail gets stuck in the spokes and they flip over the handlebars and broke their arm alone and in pain and screaming for help. Um. And they took her, took her home, and mom was really angry at me, embarrassed. So that’s a whole, there’s several little trauma or bigger traumas that happen there, and our system is like, oh my God.
[00:09:30] We are, especially the part of us that stores things by, by stimulation, by some somatic feeling and experie the senses of our, the what we’ve taken through our five senses. It’s not very logical. We’ve talked about this a zillion times. Like it’s not very logical, and it’s not gonna say, oh, I just should be careful with my towel when I go biking.
[00:09:50] It’s like, oh, I was feeling joy and look what happened. I should avoid that at all costs.
[00:09:56] Rick: I, I want to amplify that. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, I, there’s performative joy, right? Like. You’ve given a script, go up on stage, pretend that you’re happy. Right? And some people can evoke that, like their energy really does go to a performative joy.
[00:10:16] I have people in my life who really do like their joy is very expressive, right? When they’re in joy, they’re loud, they’re energetically big, they’re exuberant, they’re, and so like, if you were to map that energy, one is okay. It’s pretending joy. The other is, this is exuberant. Uh, it’s exuberant, uh, yang.
[00:10:48] It’s a very expressive kind of soy. But Cathy said what? Our sensation of joy is what matters. And that’s why we’re, we’re, we’re inviting you to feel it. And someone said like that feeling of freedom and speed, and
[00:11:10] Cathy: it might not have been cheering or laughing or smiling. It might have been very quiet, but
[00:11:15] Rick: it might’ve been, you know, even I, I’ll watch, um, my daughter on the monkey bars and sometimes the look on her face is just deeply joyful in her power.
[00:11:32] Her inner power, which is totally my heart parts, muscles are working. Now, sometimes she wants take her away from that, right? So it, we’re not fixed. But if, if these things that you’ve shared, if you look at them and they’re like moving, there’s a sensation of. Riding a bike is a sensation. Uh, rollerskating is a sensation holding a flower or running through.
[00:12:01] Like I remember the last time I ran through the clover was coming from the be, I haven’t thought of this in years, but it fits this. I was so happy. I had just swam a new record at our pool for the number of continuous laps between the break time. So in 45 minutes I had, I had swung a new record for the pool 'cause they kicked all the kids out.
[00:12:25] Um, at every fif every 45 minutes. And I was running home to tell my mom. And the clover felt so good under my feet. I was barefoot. Bee sting. Bee sting.
[00:12:40] That was the last time I ran through Clover because I. I don’t care how good it feels to run through the grass barefooted. And I honestly don’t think I, I, I think that that’s a contributor. I’m gonna keep that off to the side here. Like, is that why I don’t ever, one of the reasons, not always causative, but that’s where, um, tolerating joy is sensation oriented.
[00:13:09] So someone who’s, who’s shared, I experienced joy at the beach with my dad holding me in the deep and riding body boards. It’s still the thing that brings me the most joy in life when I can do it. So. I’m guessing that the sensation of body boards being wet and connected and there’s the smells and and sensation of being in the water is different than riding a bike down a hill.
[00:13:42] That the brain goes, oh, this is a different sensation. It’s it, there’s actually, you know, we didn’t drown, right? We didn’t, we didn’t bang our head and, uh, get hurt in a way that, um, left us wanting or embarrassed or something. And so like, oh yeah, when we have that sensation, oh, let it go. Yeah, let’s let it come.
[00:14:02] We can tolerate that sensation, but if it’s tied to, go
[00:14:08] Cathy: ahead. It’s not just movement though, it’s, it’s the, the five senses, the, the senses coming
[00:14:11] Rick: in all the senses, yeah. Right. Including energetic senses about other people’s energy. If you’re empathetic, um, and hyper vigilance goes with this challenge. Um, there’s actually.
[00:14:25] I discovered today a word for it. Cheer phobia, cheer phobia. And it’s a fear of being joyful. And um, and in fact, uh, we are definitely not alone. Um, it says it affects many people. It’s also called foreboding joy. Uh,
[00:14:48] Cathy: for anticipatory trauma.
[00:14:50] Rick: Anticipatory trauma. Um, but using the joy cheer, good cheer affects many people, particularly those who have experienced trauma, chronic stress, or unpredictable environments.
[00:15:03] And the good news, and the good news is that joy tolerance can be built gradually through specific trauma-informed practices, which is, um, one way of saying it’s a real skill. And, uh, so that’s why we’re getting, there’s
[00:15:20] Cathy: application we’re trying to walk you through. We’re trying to give you some intellectual concepts as well, just to help guide you.
[00:15:26] One of the things about this, the stimulus activated memory, it’s called SAM for short. Um, as opposed to van, which is the part that we can talk about that we kind of, maybe either remember people talking about or we remember remembering we’re not in the sensations of it. Um, the Sam part of us actually controls us very strongly.
[00:15:45] It’s very subconscious often, and it’s associative. So meaning it, it doesn’t understand causation versus correlation. Correlation means two things happen together. They’re not actually related. So the bee stings had nothing to do with the fact you just won. You did the record, or were feeling joyful. It’s just there were bee stings.
[00:16:05] Um, but that part of our brain doesn’t understand the difference between correlation and causation. Like, oh. Maybe I was, you were so happy you weren’t paying attention to where you’re putting your feet. Well, that’s something you could learn and go, oh, huh, maybe I should be a little more careful there, but I can still run joyfully through the cover.
[00:16:22] Um, so they, when we, that part of our brain isn’t very logical. It’s just like, oh, someone said that I was having a great time. And then, then my mother called me in for dinner with family. She was a rotten cook. Some that part of your brain could say, oh, if I’m joyful, I’ve gotta go eat rotten meal with some people that I don’t, I might be feeling really stressed around.
[00:16:43] So it links it. When we do this processing, the, the intellectual side can come in and go, had nothing to do with feeling joyful. It just happened to be what happened next. And then we have a lot more freedom to feel things.
[00:16:56] Rick: And, and I think that we, as we look at this together, I think sometimes when we look at someone else’s situation, we can say, oh, well that’s, you know, um.
[00:17:10] You linked up a belief because of what happened that isn’t actually necessarily true and or Yeah, there’s definitely an upgrade. Um, I used to run through that same field in the clover barefoot, um, twice a day. And I used to run even faster going to the pool when it was opening. Yeah, right. But as Cathy said, I was very aware of bees and IW would notice them and, and run around them.
[00:17:42] I never got stung until that, that time.
[00:17:46] Cathy: But your brain,
[00:17:47] Rick: right. But here’s where the subconscious, the, if you call it that or that Sam system says, we’ve decided without, were you really thinking about it? That running barefoot and grass is a terrible idea? Now I can articulate that in words now. But if you asked me five years ago at a party while everyone’s dancing barefoot in this glorious grass, while I still have my shoes on, I’d be like, yeah, I just prefer to keep my shoes on.
[00:18:26] Am I suppressing an experience? Absolutely. Do I know why I’m suppressing that experience? Uh, no, I didn’t. Now I’ve got a clue at least if I want to start walking in grass barefoot more, I will probably need to do some Tapping on, um, that crash. And that’s, that’s one of the things that, um, the foreboding aspect of, uh, tolerating joy.
[00:18:55] If you have one or a thousand experiences where you were feeling pretty good and there was a crash, um, your nervous system pulls it together. It says, no, no, no, no, no, no. That’s enough. That’s enough. No. Get your, be well-behaved boy. Um, no, no. Nobody’s, it’ll make up stories, suppression stories. And this is where we’ll see some of those probably come out.
[00:19:21] Like, and, and I invite you to, as part of the skill is, is this a suppression story? What do I mean by that? Well, when I arrived home from the bicycle, I wanted to tell everyone about what I saw. Right? I’m like eight years old. I saw so many things in the early morning that I hadn’t seen. I wanted to tell everyone, man, was I shut down.
[00:19:48] Everyone was so grumpy, they didn’t want to be up for breakfast. Um, you know, and, and the, the breakfast was nobody’s favorite meal. There was, there was no joy around the table. And, um, yeah. Can you, can you feel like that’s a suppression story? Like No, no, no. Nobody’s interested in what gives you joy.
[00:20:12] Cathy: Yeah.
[00:20:12] We’re learn, we learned to inhibit ourselves to fit into our environment and it’s very smart at the time, but it’s, sadly, no one ever tells us we can turn it off later.
[00:20:22] Rick: Right. So, um, if there are things that you’d like to, to. To reflect on in the chat if you’re here live, um, please, please feel free. Um, Cathy and I would like to go ahead.
[00:20:36] You have a, I just wanted to add
[00:20:37] Cathy: a point here. So I love it when you have the concept of what happened that compared my joy to someone else’s. It’s dangerous to feel pretty and sexy and if I hurt myself, it’s my fault. Those are general concepts. If you can, we talk about this in EFT a lot is pick the time when I learned this, the time when you want a very specific time when you learn that, 'cause that’s where it’s much easier to unhook than again, or very general.
[00:21:03] A lot of people try to tap on, I’m afraid of this, or I want to do this, or whatever. And it’s general and it’s, you just don’t get the leverage with the, that part of your memory that’s holding it fixed in place. So if you can pick the time when this happened.
[00:21:21] Okay. Yeah. Do you wanna do some Tapping?
[00:21:24] Rick: I do. And just, just to reflect, there’s another comment here. Um, we’re all learning how to manage our qi, our life force energy. And some people are naturally, as I said, very exuberant young. Um, there are other people whose just energy is really intense. It’s part of their wiring.
[00:21:44] It can be a, a trauma response, we don’t know. Um, but if we want more of something in our life and to be able to tolerate it, um, this is this, this ex, this engagement around what happens in my body when I’m around a certain kind of energy. What, what do I feel as my knee jerk reaction or my initial reaction?
[00:22:13] Emotional freedom. Says I’m gonna have a stimulus, all those sensations, all the mix of the five. I may, I, I probably don’t necessarily have a clear idea in my reaction, what, what brought it on. Um, emotional freedom wants to create a pause and a gap between reaction and how we respond. That is, for me, emotional freedom.
[00:22:42] That’s what I’ve been craving. Um, it’s what I work toward is where I’m still reactive to, to have enough of a gap where I can like set a different boundary or the other things. And part of creating that gap are, is to take the things that cause us to be reactive inside of ourselves. We may not even show it to anyone else.
[00:23:08] Maybe the only one who knows. I am so triggered here. I’m just going to quietly smile and until I can get outta here. Right. Um, so we’re gonna do some Tapping on a variety of different things. E EFT Tapping. Uh, Cathy, do you wanna describe a little bit about what, what Tapping is?
[00:23:27] Cathy: Well, Tapping, we’re Tapping, we’re, we’re physically Tapping on acupressure points that help our body reset itself.
[00:23:34] Um, and there’s lots of understanding that’s happening about how it happens, works with the primitive brain and helps. And it looks like it’s interacting with the Sam from what I can see in a more direct way. We can’t talk to ourselves. And, you know, a lot of people try to like affirmations and our brain is pretty powerful and if it doesn’t believe the affirmation, it’s just like it.
[00:23:56] It’s like you’re throwing a little water at a bonfire and you’re sprinkling a little water and it’s like, oh, I feel frustrated 'cause I’m not making a progress. But when we can do the Tapping helps reset our beliefs, it helps us see things in a different way, and that releases the hook a lot. Um, one of the things someone said, I can’t remember the sensation of joy in the past, but I notice heaviness in my stomach as I’m thinking about it now.
[00:24:19] What, when we do Tapping, you don’t even have, you can feel that heaviness in your stomach and just be with it while you tap. Even if you don’t remember the actual thing that caused, you know, caused this heaviness. Be with the sensation. Anytime you’re with the somatic feelings, the actual sensations in your body, you’re accessing Sam, you’re accessing that part of your brain.
[00:24:42] So. Maybe you don’t notice. You don’t remember what caused the heaviness. You can think, what does this remind me of? Sometimes that helps, but you can also just tap on that feeling of heaviness. And sometimes it gets really clear or sometimes it dissipates or moves around. There’s all kinds of things that happen.
[00:24:58] Um, but when you’re Tapping, we’re trying, we’re basically going in and doing a, a computer reset and going, Hey, I know that you said these two bee stings go together with running through the clover, but maybe they don’t have to be so linked. Maybe, oh, running through clover. I can be aware there’s bees and watch where I’m putting my feet, but I’m allowed to have joy.
[00:25:19] Mm-hmm. And I can run through clover and be barefoot with my friends in save places, and I just pay a little more attention. So it gives us a free, we get that part of our brain can be very rigid because it’s locking things together and then we can never do those things again if we wanna avoid the pain.
[00:25:33] Versus once we do some Tapping, they’re kind of like, oh, they go together sometimes and not all the time. And I can just pay attention when they do.
[00:25:44] Rick: Would you like to lead one on? Um,
[00:25:51] I’m drawn to, crashes are intolerable.
[00:25:53] Cathy: Oh yeah. I hated the crashes. Going from very joyful to pain or distress. For me, my nervous system just hates that. Um, so I would always like try to dampen it down before, like, I would literally start getting agitated when I was too happy and I would think thoughts that would kind of pull me down or I’d poke, poke at someone until we got in a fight or it was not good for relationships.
[00:26:17] Rick: Yeah. Let’s, let’s do some Tapping on that one.
[00:26:20] Cathy: Karate, Chop:. Even though that crash really sucks.
[00:26:24] Rick: Even though that crash really sucks,
[00:26:27] Cathy: I can’t afford to fly high.
[00:26:29] Rick: I cannot afford to fly high or fast. Can’t be,
[00:26:33] Cathy: I can’t, yeah, I can’t feel good.
[00:26:36] Rick: I can’t feel good.
[00:26:38] Cathy: I don’t have enough control.
[00:26:40] Rick: I don’t have enough control,
[00:26:41] Cathy: and that crash is gonna hurt way too much,
[00:26:44] Rick: and that crash is gonna hurt way too much.
[00:26:48] Cathy: But I still wanna feel some joy Sometimes.
[00:26:51] Rick: I want to feel some joy sometimes.
[00:26:55] Cathy: Oh, that’s not possible. It’s just not safe.
[00:26:57] Rick: That’s not safe. Are you kidding me? Don’t be. I’m not that stupid.
[00:27:02] Cathy: I’m not that stupid.
[00:27:03] Rick: I’m not that stupid. I learned the hard way.
[00:27:07] Cathy: But kids are somewhat more volatile sometimes.
[00:27:14] Rick: Kids are sometimes more volatile.
[00:27:16] Cathy: They don’t have as much experience as adults.
[00:27:19] Rick: They don’t have as much experience as adults,
[00:27:22] Cathy: and I’ve learned some amazing skills for dealing with disappointment,
[00:27:26] Rick: and I’ve learned at least some skills for dealing with disappointment.
[00:27:30] Cathy: What if I could allow myself some quiet joy?
[00:27:34] Rick: What if I could allow myself some quiet joy?
[00:27:38] Cathy: I think I’m really crazy to even think about it.
[00:27:41] Rick: I think I’m really crazy to even think about it. I,
[00:27:44] Cathy: I remember how much that hurt
[00:27:47] Rick: you. Remember how much that hurt
[00:27:49] Cathy: Side of the Eye:? The time when I really crashed,
[00:27:52] Rick: the time I really crashed
[00:27:53] Cathy: Under the Eye:, I thought my heart was gonna break.
[00:27:56] Rick: I thought my heart was going to break
[00:27:59] Cathy: Under the Nose:.
[00:27:59] I didn’t know how to deal with it.
[00:28:02] Rick: I did not know how to deal with it.
[00:28:04] Cathy: Chin: and the people around me didn’t either.
[00:28:08] Rick: And the people around me didn’t either.
[00:28:11] Cathy: Collar, wound, they actually added to the trauma.
[00:28:13] Rick: They definitely added to the trauma
[00:28:16] Cathy: Under the Arm:. I wonder if I’m in a better place now to feel a little joy.
[00:28:21] Rick: I wonder if I’m in a better place to feel a little joy sometimes.
[00:28:26] Cathy: Tough of head when
[00:28:26] Rick: no one’s, when no one’s watching.
[00:28:29] Cathy: I can take baby steps.
[00:28:30] Rick: I can take baby steps.
[00:28:32] Cathy: I wrote. Might be fun to try a little joy.
[00:28:36] Rick: It might be fun to try a little joy
[00:28:39] Cathy: Side of the Eye:. What if I could just tolerate a two in joy for 10 seconds?
[00:28:44] Rick: What if I could tolerate a two? Enjoy for 10 seconds
[00:28:48] Cathy: Under the Eye:? It might be curious.
[00:28:52] Rick: It might be curious.
[00:28:53] Cathy: Under the Nose:. I hate that I cut out so much joy outta my life.
[00:28:58] Rick: I do hate that I cut out so much joy in my life.
[00:29:02] Cathy: All that. Inhibition and suppression,
[00:29:04] Rick: all that. Inhibition and suppression,
[00:29:07] Cathy: Collarbone: all that.
[00:29:08] Avoiding
[00:29:09] Rick: all that avoiding.
[00:29:11] Cathy: And then I’d really like to try to change this pattern.
[00:29:15] Rick: I’d really like to change this pattern,
[00:29:17] Cathy: Top of the Head:. And maybe a baby step is a good place to start
[00:29:20] Rick: and maybe a baby step is a good place to start.
[00:29:23] Cathy: Just take a breath
[00:29:28] and just notice what’s coming up in your body. There’s no right or wrong. We’re just being curious. You might feel some intensity, negative or positive. You might have some thoughts coming up, some memories. Just notice them with curiosity. They’re, your Sam’s system is trying to communicate with you. Your whole system wants to heal.
[00:29:48] It wants freedom and health and joy. It’s like a natural impulse for it, but often it’s stuck on things. So it’s gonna try to send you clues, but it’s not like your explicit memory where it can go, oh, that was silly. Why did I ever think that it can’t do that? But it can send you pictures and feelings.
[00:30:06] It’s trying to communicate with you and the Tapping helps you get access to that.
[00:30:18] Rick: Crashes, uh, are sometimes specific traumas if you have. Like pe some people have shared a specific trauma where you were feeling joy and there was a crash, literal crash, bee sting, emotional shaming, um, whatever it was. And that is still, you know, intense to you at a 7, 8, 9. Um, there’s a lot of
[00:30:47] Cathy: inhibition going on.
[00:30:50] Rick: We’re not gonna be doing specific trauma work, but there is, uh, there’s a, of course we have, uh, on childhood trauma relief and there’s other free things about relief, um, to specific traumas that we have. Uh, you can email, um, us at support at ThrivingNow dot com, um, if you need a point or to it. Um, but even the general.
[00:31:20] Invitation. You’ll notice that there was a lot of invitation there with Tapping. You recognize something that you feel a somatic experience, something in your body, a thought, a belief, um, how you’ve adapted. I like the way that you brought in, you know, a recognition of you’re gonna have feelings about suppressing your joy in the past.
[00:31:45] Like that’s, I ever since we scheduled this, I, wow. I think that’s why it got delayed twice. Um, is that for me, um, I am actually surrounded by a lot of joy and, uh, there’s a, a fear and control and resistance that activates in me and some of that. It is just old patterns that really don’t have to do with even what I would consciously consider good parenting.
[00:32:25] And I do the same for myself too. And so, um, I’d like to do a Tapping just on some of that reactive, you know, reaction to joy. That’d
[00:32:38] Cathy: be really good.
[00:32:41] Rick: Even though I react to joy,
[00:32:44] Cathy: even though I react to joy
[00:32:45] Rick: and it’s not the way I react to chocolate cake and ice cream,
[00:32:49] Cathy: it is not the way I react to chocolate chip, chocolate cake and ice cream.
[00:32:53] Rick: I don’t necessarily think this is something good.
[00:32:56] Cathy: I don’t necessarily think this is something good.
[00:33:00] Rick: Hop ahead. There’s too much joy here.
[00:33:02] Cathy: There is too much joy here. Alert. Alert.
[00:33:05] Rick: Eyebrow:. Too much joy.
[00:33:07] Cathy: Too much joy.
[00:33:08] Rick: Side of the Eye:. Too loud.
[00:33:10] Cathy: Too
[00:33:11] Rick: loud. That much joy is unacceptable.
[00:33:15] Cathy: That much joy is unacceptable,
[00:33:17] Rick: isn’t it?
[00:33:18] Cathy: Isn’t it?
[00:33:20] Rick: Under the Nose:? A part of me learned that.
[00:33:23] Cathy: A part of me learned that
[00:33:25] Rick: Jen, a part of me reacts to that. Still a
[00:33:28] Cathy: part of me reacts to it, still
[00:33:30] Rick: call. It doesn’t even fit how I feel.
[00:33:33] Cathy: It doesn’t even fit how I feel.
[00:33:38] Rick: I want them to be joyful.
[00:33:40] Cathy: I want them to be joyful
[00:33:41] Rick: Under the Arm:. I want me to be joyful.
[00:33:44] Cathy: I want me to be joyful,
[00:33:46] Rick: Top of the Head:. And the truth is, there are parts of me that doesn’t do not think that that’s safe.
[00:33:51] Cathy: Part of me really doesn’t think that that’s safe
[00:33:55] Rick: or welcome
[00:33:57] Cathy: or welcome.
[00:34:01] Anything our, our brain is learned is dangerous. And again, it’s a subconscious is not logical. We avoid, we’re gonna inhibit or get away from when Rick and I have done a bunch of calls on money and I had this problem, money was a cause of fights all the time when I was little. And so I hate, I was terrified of it even though I really wanted to save it.
[00:34:23] And no matter how hard I worked, my bank account was always almost depleted and my credit card was run up. And no matter I just like fighting myself. And I was so like, I’m a smart person. Why am I, what am I doing wrong? And once I got Tapping and clearing some of that, I’m like, wait, there’s money in my bank account.
[00:34:39] What happened? My brain thought of it as like having poisonous snakes curling all around me. It’s like, get it away so we can do the same thing for joy. And someone shared in here, I thought it was a great example. Uh, family joy with cousins and then parents having a huge fight and then learning, then leaving and driving this long way home with angry, sad parents and then not seeing the cousins for months or years and happen more than once.
[00:35:03] That’s like, oh, if I feel this good feeling, I get lost. I get anger, I get all these other things that our brain thinks goes with it. Why would I wanna have that good feeling? It doesn’t make any sense to that part of our brain. But as we start unhooking these old beliefs, they’re like, wow, mom and dad really didn’t know how to handle, handle their anger, and they didn’t really communicate really well, and they kind of drifted all over the whole family.
[00:35:28] And Wow, that had nothing to do with my joy. That was their issue. But when we’re little, we’re, we’re in that soup and we can’t separate it.
[00:35:38] Rick: Yeah. So our reaction to other people’s joy, uh, someone was honest about it. Look, they, they don’t like it when. Other people are joyful when they’re not. And that is so human.
[00:35:52] Um, I, that’s true. For me, there’s, there’s a disconnect, right? We, um, I think we’ll go into that a little deeper in, in a bit, but if you have a reaction that way,
[00:36:12] ask yourself. I mean, do, is that the way you wanna stay? Because if it is the way you wanna stay, then you can say something to yourself like, yeah. Um, I want to hold a space that when people are, when, when my children or other people are around those that are miserable, that they take their joy outside.
[00:36:38] Cathy: There’s a, that they recognize they can take it outside or be elsewhere. But a lot of people, it’s, they, they should kill it.
[00:36:44] Rick: Well. What is self-control, right? Like I, I wanna be energy savvy, okay? If I just had the best moment of my life and I just walked into somebody and they were diagnosed with breast cancer, I’m, I am not going to take over the space, right?
[00:37:01] So like, as a parent, I want my children to grow up to be savvy at tracking the areas. Mm-hmm. And here’s the thing, if I’m reactive about their joy, I’m not actually a good parent. By my definition. If I am able to coach them about it, then I’m more in myself. But my reaction is coming from somewhere. It could be like.
[00:37:32] That noise. I’m noise sensitive. That noise is too much for me. It could be that, um, I just am reactive to an intense energy of any kind. I, I get that. And so this is, this is, um, one of the things that I promised was what’s working for me? And, um, and this is like looking at how do I want to be, not where I am.
[00:38:00] Oh, we’re, I’m talking about where I want to be and where I want to be is okay, if I’m getting triggered and reactive, I want a pause which asks a very simple question, is this allowed?
[00:38:17] And if I, if the answer to that is it’s allowed, suddenly something changes inside me because now I know it’s. My res, it’s my body mind’s energy reaction to that rather than they’re doing something that the space was not designed to do. Okay. Does that make sense? And, and that’s allows, as Cathy said, it’s, it starts taking something that is all kind of glom together in my nervous system and starts separating it out.
[00:38:58] And this is what I’ve tapped on. Like, even though I reacted,
[00:39:03] Cathy: even though I reacted
[00:39:04] Rick: and I’m flooded right now,
[00:39:06] Cathy: and I’m flooded right now,
[00:39:07] Rick: I am so resentful.
[00:39:09] Cathy: I’m so resentful.
[00:39:12] Rick: How could they be so loud and joyful?
[00:39:15] Cathy: How could they be so loud and joyful
[00:39:17] Rick: when I am not,
[00:39:19] Cathy: when I’m not?
[00:39:21] Rick: Hmm.
[00:39:24] As I feel into this,
[00:39:26] Cathy: as I feel into this,
[00:39:29] Rick: what they’re doing is actually allowed.
[00:39:31] Cathy: What they’re doing is actually allowed
[00:39:34] Rick: Top of the Head:. It’s too much for me.
[00:39:36] Cathy: It’s too much for me,
[00:39:37] Rick: Eyebrow:, but it is allowed. It
[00:39:40] Cathy: is allowed
[00:39:41] Rick: Side of the Eye:. They’re allowed to play in the playroom.
[00:39:44] Cathy: They’re allowed to play in the playroom
[00:39:46] Rick: Under the Eye:.
[00:39:47] They’re allowed to play exuberant in the playroom.
[00:39:50] Cathy: They’re allowed to play exuberant in the playroom
[00:39:53] Rick: Under the Nose:. Even though I’m tired with a headache,
[00:39:57] Cathy: even though I’m tired with a headache.
[00:40:02] Rick: It is allowed.
[00:40:04] Cathy: It’s allowed.
[00:40:08] Rick: It’s allowed. In this case,
[00:40:10] Cathy: it’s allowed. In this case,
[00:40:14] Rick: I may have a request and
[00:40:17] Cathy: I have a request.
[00:40:18] Rick: I may have a request.
[00:40:19] Cathy: I may have a request.
[00:40:22] Rick: But what they’re doing is allowed,
[00:40:24] Cathy: what they’re doing is allowed
[00:40:26] Rick: Top of the Head:. I’m even glad my kids have joy.
[00:40:29] Cathy: I’m even glad my kids have joy.
[00:40:35] I think that’s, it’s a lot. We talked another call about differentiation. Enmeshed families. We all have to have the same feelings and if anyone’s happy when other people are sad, you’re like, you don’t value or respect me. You like, there’s a lot of emotions that come up about it. Sorry, I didn’t mean that quite as mock to come up quite as mocking as I meant as I said it.
[00:40:53] But I get very frustrated sometimes when I see people pulling everyone else down. Um, when we can be separate, when, oh, I get to be joyful. You get to be wherever you are. I don’t have to like pumble you with my joy. I don’t have to pumble you with my sadness, but we get to have our own thing and we get to feel out how do we wanna interact around it.
[00:41:14] I think emotionally savvy people, I really love that you said. Oh, like they get to have this in this one place, or, you know, we’ve agreed that’s they’re within the rules even though my head hurts and we can kind of be like, oh, they can be joyful while I’m sad and I have space for it. And I think there’s some people that don’t have that capacity and we are usually, we’re often savvy enough to go, oh, that person’s not gonna handle this well, so I’m gonna just tuck it off to the side and, you know, wait till I can get outta here and, and go feel it.
[00:41:43] But we’re also not responsible anymore for like, when we were little, it was smart, it was savvy to like, oh, they’re gonna come down on me like a ton of breaks. They’re gonna make sure I’m not joyful anymore if I, if I go around being joyful. Um, so it was good to hide it, but now we can just go, oh wow. It sounds like you’re having a really rough day.
[00:42:01] And we can decide how much we wanna be there for them, and then we can go out and run through the clover if we want to. Mm-hmm. But differentiation and emotional savviness let us be like, we don’t have to be the same thing. We can, and we can have joy for someone shared about enmeshment that they were the family.
[00:42:17] It was really the family that decided what was joyful. It was good. And it’s great to find out like what actually makes me happy. And that’s just a really fun path to go on.
[00:42:28] Rick: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:32] So I do sometimes say it’s not allowed. Mm-hmm. So for example, if um, the kids are playing and I’m cooking and their play comes into the kitchen, now if I’m reactive, I’m gonna get angry and feel offended. And, um, and that again. I am not judging at this point. I’ve done enough Tapping and introspection to know that my very human reactions are human reactions.
[00:43:06] I also believe with all my heart and a seed in so many thousands of people at this point, that that which we react to can be, can be gently hoaxed and encouraged into a different kind of response. Because being resentful of those that are joyful actually locks us in energetically, right? It’s like, oh, I, I’m reacting with resentment.
[00:43:42] Um, and, and that happened so fast. I was in the middle of writing a very complicated reply to someone, and the kids just started having the greatest time.
[00:43:56] And you know, when you, when you have what you’re in the middle of typing and then something happens and it’s gone. Like I was, I didn’t actually do this, but I was like, you thought about it. I started my turn and I said, it’s allowed.
[00:44:16] Tap, tap, tap. I’m not suppressing myself by the way, in my energy field. It didn’t feel I was channeling a reaction into clarity. That’s the way it feels inside of me. It’s like, what is actually going on here? I had a reaction. Oh, well they’re having a great time. And, um, yeah, I just, I was, I was trying to do something that required deeper conversation, deeper concentration and quiet for me doing it in the other room, which is allowed, um.
[00:44:56] And that kept me from yelling at them to keep it quiet in little increments. I’m, I’m wanting an environment where we can talk and, and describe like what we need. I, um, about 15 minutes later, uh, I felt, I felt my clarity returning about what I wanted to say, which actually was a little different than what I was about to write.
[00:45:23] And I said, Hey, um, I’m gonna go upstairs to the office and close the door and finish this email. And it actually came out in a way that was really pleasing to me, if that makes sense. Yeah. So I, I believe that as we get savvy with the skill of going from reaction and what rises from reaction to, um, like.
[00:45:52] Taking it within, going to a place of, um, you know, what’s okay, what’s allowed. Um, we will, we will feel better. And, and the really cool thing is that, um, if we, I’ve noticed that, as I say, it’s allowed around joy.
[00:46:23] I actually am starting to use it around like disappointment.
[00:46:30] Cathy: Hmm.
[00:46:31] Rick: Like I used to have this reaction to loud energy, including loud disappointment. Mm-hmm. And I would say it’s, but deer’s been helping
[00:46:44] Cathy: you with that one.
[00:46:45] Rick: Yeah, I know, but it’s, but this, this, that’s one of the cool things about. As you said, the SAM system is that as we, the sensation of a not emotional energy coming at me, um, was creating a a pretty consistent, this is not okay, this is not allowed, even though con consciously, well, disappointment’s allowed.
[00:47:09] I coach that. I, I try to coach myself with that. Um, do you see, uh, by, by opening up this pathway to Oh, well, yeah. Their enjoyment is allowed. They’re allowed to enjoy things. Oh, they’re actually allowed to not enjoy things too.
[00:47:28] Cathy: The full range is, it’s allowed
[00:47:31] Rick: And, and that’s a very, it’s a fascinating thing that I wanted to share because I, I, I sense a skill developing in me.
[00:47:40] That I’ve been wanting around the range of very intense emotions that are right in my nervous system, right in my energy space, which is different than in an email or in a over zoom or something.
[00:47:54] Cathy: Yeah, and I’d love to, I’d love that you’re sharing these examples. I do wanna just add that I think that Rick is being a little bit hard on himself when he says he is a bad parent when he does stuff, he’s doing skills that most parents wouldn’t.
[00:48:07] I mean, I would judge 80% of the population would never even consider looking at. So thank
[00:48:13] Rick: you. And
[00:48:13] Cathy: much less doing it at the level he’s doing that. So if you hear something the resonates, it’s more the feeling
[00:48:18] Rick: of, of like, this isn’t the parent I want to be. Right. And it feels bad in it. I get a body no.
[00:48:25] From how I’m expressing my reaction.
[00:48:28] Cathy: I just, I, I was little. I, I I understand where you’re coming from and I, I so respect and love how much you care about being a good parent. I just know for myself, I’m like, oh, I’ve done some of these things with my cats or my friends, or like, I don’t have kids myself, but I borrow them consensually from people.
[00:48:44] Um, and I’m, I’m definitely not perfect at this. And if they’re not even my kids, and they’re definitely more triggery when they’re your own kids. I just wanted to add in that if someone is sitting there and kind of beating themselves up about not being a good parent. Know that just the fact that you care about this and it resonates with you means that you’re already more introspective and more aware than a lot, like a vast majority of, I would judge parents out there.
[00:49:07] So we’re always fine tuning. I don’t know that we’re ever satisfied and just noticing it. The fact, oh my God, I’m aware if I, there’s people I know that are in my life now and earlier if I told them that this was a concern, they’re like, no, those stupid kids should know not to rampage through the house when I have a headache.
[00:49:25] I didn’t tell them, but they should know How
[00:49:26] Rick: many times have I told them not?
[00:49:29] Cathy: So, you know, like the fact that you just being on this call means that you’re someone who cares about fine tuning your life. 'cause when you allow more joy in your life, you’re role modeling for other people. And really I just, I think when we walk through the world, we learn through mirror neuros, pick up stuff.
[00:49:47] Like we don’t even have to be deeply connected with someone for them to go, oh, that person’s allowing joy. How do they get to do that? Can I, it shows possibilities. So the fact that you’re here on this call doing this work is such a beautiful thing to me.
[00:50:02] Rick: Uh, my parenting this time around, I, I have adult children too.
[00:50:06] Cathy: Two rounds too. You said two rounds?
[00:50:08] Rick: Yeah, two rounds. Um, so in this second round, um, someone said it’s like full expression at loud and high intensity isn’t allowed. And I want to clarify. Um, I have made it clear to my kids that the sound of sirens coming out of their mouth or out of any toys is not something I can handle within our house.
[00:50:39] I can handle it if they’re running up and down the street, I can if it’s in the other room. Yeah. I love it.
[00:50:46] Cathy: You handle it.
[00:50:49] Rick: Even if I’m in this office and the door is closed. And they’re downstairs. This someone gave us a firetruck.
[00:51:03] Cathy: That was not me. I’m not the bad person this time.
[00:51:05] Rick: No. Yeah. But a again, like that, that raised the question about what’s allowed.
[00:51:11] And I think that if I help the kids understand that there are humans that are sensitive to certain kind of sounds or like emotional intensity. Right. Um, good awareness. So, so it’s saying, Hey, when it comes to emotions, I have superhero. Like, and so if you’re, if you’re really tender and quiet, but you want someone to be really with you, I can do that.
[00:51:50] Right. Really intense energy overwhelms my system in the same way that if I were to a big scary monster were to scream in your ear, your ear would hurt. Your body would be like, I’ve gotta get away from this. And so please understand, I’m more sensitive than the average monster and you don’t want me to turn me into a monster.
[00:52:24] Uh, right. Like, so, so I, I believe that there is a quality of tolerating joy, which says, what’s my reaction in the range of, I, I, I want someone to be able to have that experience. Okay. Like. If I love someone, I want them to be able to have that exuberant joy. Where would I feel just delighted to have them have that exuberant joy, uh, half a mile away.
[00:53:02] I could watch them from my, from binoculars. Hey, if that’s your yes, right? Like, yeah, it’s allowed, it’s allowed on the beach when I’m, you know, way up on the deck. Keeping an eye on you. Right. Um, but not like in my face. And that is, that is true for, for both of us that are parenting this, this range of kids.
[00:53:26] We have, um, exuberant beings. And I am wanting to just allow a bit more. It’s allowed, it’s allowed, it’s allowed. And then there’s this range of, no, no. Too much.
[00:53:48] Cathy: It’s allowed, but is it appropriate for the situation? Right. Not in my,
[00:53:51] Rick: we have an expression called, not in my space Bubble. Yeah. Right. Space bubble says, you know, depends on which space bubble you’re talking about.
[00:54:00] But I have a, a number of them and certain things are not allowed, like at closer to levels. Yeah. Um, and it’s okay. And I think that that’s, um, it changes our energy to being one where, um, there’s a difference between pre suppression of that, which is actually allowed, which I suffer from, suffer as I, I’m using that term.
[00:54:33] Very mindfully. It, it’s painful when I suppress myself, when I really could be, you know, man, this is awesome. I, you know, I, I want to have more of those moments. Um, and yeah, this space isn’t, this, we, space is not designed for that, you know? Um.
[00:55:03] Go ahead, sorry. And then we should take a, our seven minute break.
[00:55:05] Cathy: Yeah, we should take, I was just gonna say, I think we should probably, this, this is such a good topic. I think we should take a break and come back. We’re gonna talk more about perfectionism and ways that we block our, our enjoyment of, of life, um, by comparison and, and other things like that.
[00:55:20] So I think it was a pretty juicy topic and I really, I love how much you’re all sharing on this. It’s really helping us kind of tune it to what you want, hopefully.
[00:55:29] Rick: So, yeah. And we’ll be, we’ll be reading and checking the, the chat during the break. And if you’re watching the recording, invite you to take a break here too.
[00:55:37] We’ll be back in, uh, seven minutes.
[00:55:39] Cathy: Yes.
[00:55:44] Rick: Welcome back
[00:55:47] Cathy: some great comments over the break. Thank you all.
[00:55:53] I I wanted to comment on, someone was saying that there are different hormones enjoyed with, involved with feeling joy, and it’s true dopamine and, and end endorphin, serotonin, cin, there’s others too. Realize that our nervous system can tell what’s going through our system. It feels different if we’re feeling a lot of serotonin or dopamine or oxytocin.
[00:56:15] They feel somewhat different to our nervous system. If we got really frightened or overwhelmed when, when there was a dopamine experience, for example, we might, next time we feel dopamine, you might be like, oh, scary. So again, that just that causation, it’s not really related necessarily, but our system doesn’t know it.
[00:56:34] Um, and I, I think the simplest way in my mind doesn’t mean it’s the only option at all is to go that time that I felt this. Like let yourself feel that anxiety or whatever comes up and see where it draws you, where your memory draws you to, and then do Tapping on that particular memory. 'cause that’s probably where it’s hooked and there may be.
[00:56:54] Depending on your life, what you had, some of us have many, uh, different things, but if you tap on the ones that come up, usually if you do 2, 3, 4, maybe five of them, you start getting a huge shift in your system. So, and there may be other things going on too, but often that can really shift. It
[00:57:14] Rick: really shifted and we’re seeing the wisdom of our, of our community and our circle here.
[00:57:19] Um, you know, we, if you’ve been looking at this and you’re yourself and you realize, oh, I was, I was someone who experiences powerful experiences that I call joy. Mm-hmm. But they’re not a very loud, kind of evocative way of expressing it. And we grew up with a family that. Um, their joy was loud and, you know, football game, cheering, yelling, screaming and, and, and we’re like, oh no.
[00:57:58] You don’t understand. I was walking along the trail and there was so, it was so peaceful and quiet, and it’s early autumn, here in Appalachia, and the moss was happy. I could, I could,
[00:58:10] Cathy: I love that feeling.
[00:58:12] Rick: Moss was happy and there was this leaf, this one red leaf on the moss. Mm-hmm. You’ll never believe it.
[00:58:23] There was a mushroom, little tiny mushroom growing right next to it too. It’s like, oh God, how beautiful. You can just strike us. I’m, I’m, you could probably tell I’m acting a little bit to help communicate this across a video channel, whereas if you saw me on the trail, you’d see a. A stop, a pause. You might notice that I took a bigger breath,
[00:58:54] I closed my eyes, I put my hand to my heart.
[00:59:01] I can still feel it, I can still sense it, and I tolerated it.
[00:59:10] And, um, and sometimes you’ll see my, my pace quicken because the, the energy, whatever it is, is like I’m, I’m putting a sound to it. And I,
[00:59:30] yeah. When we get to recognize and, and then there’s the question, the question of, okay. I definitely have learned that there are simple uplifts and they’re mine and they’re, it’s like that, that word that the turn of phrase can give me such an inward sense of just artistry on that comes to me or I see it.
[01:00:00] It’s like, oh, um, and even that’s too evocative for like, what, what I actually feel. And I would say that part of my curiosity here is as a kid, I was definitely more inward. Like if, if, if I really could coach myself at eight, I’d be like, yeah, most of your joy is gonna be like, remember that time when you, you, you were just.
[01:00:37] Down the fire lane on the roller skates and you just felt like it was effortless. You didn’t go woo-hoo. Right. It was just like, ah, that inner joy. And there’s a part of you that wants moments and places to celebrate. And, um, and that’s part of the, the tolerating joy that we’ve touched on is what is the we space designed for?
[01:01:03] And if we’re in a family where it’s chaos or family, which is not really connected, they’re not deeply interested in their, they, they, their whole role model about parenting is more about control than getting to know and to,
[01:01:19] Cathy: it’s literally tolerating the day and tolerating the kids.
[01:01:23] Rick: Yeah. If that’s the model that we were growing up with, um.
[01:01:28] My mother didn’t want to get me to get injured and hurt. She worried a lot. And so everything that I did to keep her from getting worried was being a good boy. Mm-hmm. Um, but if we can also explore, like, is there another aspect of joy that I would like to feel free to express? And I’m seeing some of that in the community center, ThrivingNow at that center.
[01:01:54] I, I see people who, who, who feel a joy in expressing themselves and being heard. Um, and it’s vulnerable and, um, and doing some art that just, or finding a piece or a song or sharing an experience. Yeah. And I am taking such joy, really, and it’s, it, it, it’s got some exuberance to it. Like, oh, this is my space that.
[01:02:26] I’m co-creating and look at these people. They’re doing things that are really right for them. I can feel it. They’re saying it in their words. They’re sharing their music, uh, and their art and their reality. And I, I, I just take such pleasure in that. And if I can tolerate a little more of that, I get nourished.
[01:02:53] And this is where joy like yearning has an edge. And it’s okay for us to say, look, yearning has an edge, and which is our last workshop. And joy, it has an edge. It’s like up to this point, my nervous system can be with it. Or for this long, and then I want to catch it more softly, and that’s the crash. It’s not a crash avoidance, which is survival, but to me there’s a skill in being like, oh, that was amazing.
[01:03:23] Cathy: It’s more a transition, not a crash, I think.
[01:03:26] Rick: Correct.
[01:03:28] Cathy: It’s like, oh, I, because everything comes and goes. All of our emotions come and go. And I think I, I know I suck at transitioning emotions because. There was not really anyone teaching me how to do it. And I would clinging to the good stuff as long as I could and then into the bad.
[01:03:45] I think that when we can learn like, oh, it’s just an ebb and flow. It’s just what is, and I think a lot of that, like listening to our body, how do I wanna express this particular feeling? How can I be with this particular feeling? Oh, this is something I label as good, this is something I label as bad or scary.
[01:04:02] Oh, they’re just, those are thoughts about it, but all feelings are just part of us. And listening to our authentic expression as we go through it, versus like, I should be jumping up and down to be if I’m joyful or I should be waving my arms or, um, you know, what, what is it that I think I should be doing versus what do I actually feel like doing?
[01:04:22] It’s a, that’s a skill that many people don’t have.
[01:04:25] Rick: Mm-hmm. You were talking about perfectionism.
[01:04:30] Cathy: Mm-hmm. I think it’s a really important topic for this. Um, is it okay if I just riff a little bit and you can add in. So I’ve been, I think I’ve shared a number of times here that I’ve been doing a lot of, uh, studying Buddhism and I love the two cups idea.
[01:04:47] It’s like you can have both. And I did not grow up with this, and my growing up it was very black or white. You either happy or you’re sad, what’s your problem? Um, and that’s not how humans actually work. Like it was a really big aha for me. Like, hell, I can be happy like that I’m having a beautiful day and sad about something I read on the news or you know, like I could have had a, a tough call with somebody, but I could also just enjoy the cup, the sip of tea I’m taking, you know, while I’m on the call with that person.
[01:05:17] So giving space for both, um. I think it allows us to be nourished a lot more in life and to be with reality as it is, as opposed to how we think it should be. I know it was a very much control mechanism. Like I had to have everything lined up and just right, and then I could allow myself to relax and, and have some pleasure, but everything had to line up just right.
[01:05:39] And if one little thing went wrong, it was like, nevermind. And I would get so mad at that thing or the person or like, oh, could you ruined the whole thing? It didn’t really, it was my mental pattern around it, but I, I just, I love that two cups like, can I have both? Can I feel and mean, know many cups? Like I can be somewhat angry and sad and scared and happy and we can have a lot of different feelings going on at the same time.
[01:06:02] We are complex human beings and I think for many of us, a sense of safety it meant, oh, I better be perfect about this, or I’m gonna get hurt, or judged or picked on or ashamed or whatever. So that we often just held onto like. Oh, I can only be happy when I’m alone and there’s no one else there. Or I can only be happy when things have gone really smoothly.
[01:06:25] Or do you have some that you do Rick or you used to do?
[01:06:33] Rick: Um,
[01:06:38] I think my, I was still with the, and and how that applies to joy, especially in, in my world. And, and just feeling that, oh, there’s something here where there is something that is enjoyable mm-hmm. Um, that I can sip. And, um, in fact, my AI talked about sipping joy. Oh, I love that. Before the call. I love that.
[01:07:08] Just a sip. Just a sip. And I noticed, for example. I was trying to get, uh, I had forgotten that Adera had tumbling class and I was, uh, feeling mama just left for work. It’s like, ah, tumbling class. Ah, run, run. Guess what? Bald men don’t have a lot of experience putting ponytails in.
[01:07:37] Cathy: Oh, I can. So picture this. Gem
[01:07:39] Rick: has tried to teach me
[01:07:41] Cathy: four times now.
[01:07:46] Rick: So in one, in one hand, I’m like, I want her to be there on time. It’s, it’s a little awkward to come into a class that is already started and she’s, um,
[01:07:58] Cathy: she hasn’t been going through. It
[01:07:58] Rick: just works better. It just works better if we arrive on time, even a little early. And, um. There was that kinetic energy and it was pretty, like, I wasn’t, I wasn’t in reaction.
[01:08:13] It was more like, okay, we’re gonna have to get our stuff together, get dressed, get out, um, oh, they want us to pee before you go, right? Because the outfit is hard to get in and out of which we did. And then it was like, oh, ponytail time.
[01:08:33] Cathy: Oops, mom. I accidentally put out the hair so I didn’t have to put it in a ponytail.
[01:08:38] Rick: But you know what, I did a, I did a B plus job for the first time. Oh. You know, the bow was up and down instead of to the side and stuff. But I sipped a little joy of, you know, there will come a time where I will remember, I want to remember this moment. I want to feel this, the connection and the satisfaction of, yeah, dad.
[01:09:06] And, uh, I love that a a, but it was a sip because there was other things going on that were essential and we arrived right on time.
[01:09:19] Cathy: I think the more we tolerated though, the more we can, like, we build up muscles and capacity for it. So it’s like, oh, I could just sip it here. But like, if you keep practicing in three months, it might be like, oh, I can have a nice dose of it while I’m juggling other things.
[01:09:32] Rick: I, I even, I even gave myself enough of a sip to take a picture of it Aw. And, and send, send it off to, uh, to Jim. And, and so in the midst of all of that, and, and the energy I had, because I’ve been practicing this for a month, is it’s allowed you, you, Rick, not just like she’s allowed, but like you’re allowed to pause here.
[01:10:07] And record this in your heart and in, in, uh, a picture. Yeah. Even though it’s not perfect, even though, um, you forgot, even though there’s a kinetic energy to get out the door. And that’s honestly really encouraging for me. That’s huge. Um, of more Vitamin J would be really good. Um, when you’re tending to a lot in the, in your life and your world and your, in your work, um, and your own, your own body.
[01:10:42] Cathy: Can we do a Tapping to anchor some of that? Yeah.
[01:10:45] Rick: Yeah. Would you lead it?
[01:10:46] Cathy: Yeah, I’d love to. And I have some suggestions from the Tapping from the chat too. Just I invite you to take a deep breath and see if you can get with your body sensations that helps you access that part of your brain you’re trying to shift.
[01:10:58] And just, just breathe and just let yourself be here for a second and notice your fingers. Notice the sensation of your fingers Tapping. A lot of times we kind of get numb to it 'cause it help we, if we tap a lot, we get used to it. Even though I learned joy wasn’t safe,
[01:11:15] Rick: even though I learned joy wasn’t safe.
[01:11:18] Cathy: And it seemed like there were a lot of lessons
[01:11:21] Rick: and it seemed like there were a lot of lessons.
[01:11:23] Cathy: I’m seeing that not all of them meant joy wasn’t safe.
[01:11:28] Rick: I’m starting to see that not all of them meant that joy wasn’t safe.
[01:11:33] Cathy: Sometimes it wasn’t safe with certain people.
[01:11:36] Rick: Oh yeah. Sometimes it wasn’t safe with certain people.
[01:11:40] Cathy: And isn’t it cool that I know how to turn it off if I need to?
[01:11:45] Rick: Yeah. Isn’t it cool I know how to turn it off if I need to. Top of
[01:11:49] Cathy: the Head:. Now I’m trying to learn to turn it back on.
[01:11:52] Rick: Now I’m learning how to turn it back on.
[01:11:56] Cathy: I, bro, what if I can allow little sips of joy?
[01:11:59] Rick: What if I can allow a little sip of joy
[01:12:02] Cathy: Side of the Eye:, even if I think other people might be mad,
[01:12:06] Rick: even if I think other people might be mad
[01:12:08] Cathy: Under the Eye:, even if my brain gets a little scared,
[01:12:11] Rick: even if my brain gets a little scared
[01:12:14] Cathy: Under the Nose:.
[01:12:14] Just baby steps.
[01:12:16] Rick: Baby steps,
[01:12:18] Cathy: Chin:, little sips of joy,
[01:12:20] Rick: little sips of joy,
[01:12:22] Cathy: Collarbone:. It doesn’t have to be perfect for me to sip joy.
[01:12:25] Rick: It doesn’t have to be perfect and probably won’t be for me to sip joy.
[01:12:30] Cathy: And there in this moment, I’m here with some amazing people
[01:12:34] Rick: In this moment. I’m here with some amazing people.
[01:12:37] Cathy: Top of that, that’s kind of joyful,
[01:12:40] Rick: that has got joy in it.
[01:12:42] Cathy: I wrote, I’m Tapping to help myself feel joy.
[01:12:45] Rick: I’m Tapping to help myself feel joy
[01:12:48] Cathy: Side of the Eye:. That can actually be a sip of joy too.
[01:12:51] Rick: That can be a sip of joy too.
[01:12:54] Cathy: Under the Eye:, I learned that joy was pretty scary.
[01:13:00] Rick: I learned the hard way. Joy could be pretty scary
[01:13:03] Cathy: Under the Nose:, especially in connection with other people,
[01:13:06] Rick: especially in connection with other people.
[01:13:09] Cathy: But I’ve just spent over an hour with all these people here.
[01:13:13] Rick: I’ve just spent over an hour with all these people here,
[01:13:16] Cathy: Collarbone:, and not one of them is sad that I’m joyful.
[01:13:19] Rick: Not one of 'em are sad that I’m sipping joy
[01:13:22] Cathy: Under the Arm:. Maybe I can hang out with new people.
[01:13:27] Rick: Maybe I can hang out with new people,
[01:13:30] Cathy: Top of the Head: and practice tolerating and sipping joy
[01:13:33] Rick: and practice tolerating and sipping joy.
[01:13:38] Cathy: Just take a breath and just see what comes up for you. Again, nothing right or wrong, it just is. Yeah,
[01:13:47] Rick: it’s interesting. Uh, someone said, what about wanting to hold on to joy? Mm-hmm. Um, how to hold it. Um, and everything I’ve read in my own experience is that joy is like a sip. Mm-hmm. You can swish it around in your mouth. You can, but it doesn’t belong there 40 minutes later, you know, maybe it’s another sip of joy, but that’s closer to our biochemical.
[01:14:12] Yeah.
[01:14:13] Cathy: When we try to hold on. It’s like that sponge of water. You squeeze it all out.
[01:14:17] Rick: Right. And EE even based, you know what, what Cathy and I know about, um, sexuality and sexual pleasure, the, you’re really not wanting to go to a peak and hold it forever. Yeah. Right. Like a minute of orgasm is a long time.
[01:14:40] Cathy: It’s pretty sense now. It’s different from shutting it down prematurely. So if you’re shutting it down prematurely, some of that is just learning to build. Like, oh, I notice the first step is, oh, I notice I’m shutting it down.
[01:14:54] Rick: Right. And it’s okay. Again, like there’s a shutdown, which is, is often fear driven, a fear reaction.
[01:15:03] There also is like, okay, I’m getting close to my, my body is saying reduce sensation, reduced sensation, because that’s actually better for me. It’s better to be more glow than go right now. Yeah. And, and as we, as we feel the undulations of our energy field internally and decide what happy sounds we make or don’t Yeah.
[01:15:34] Or what, what kind of expression we choose to share and with whom, um, that is filling in for as a trauma informed skill. And I, if, uh. Micro steps, baby steps, little sips of joy, allowing ourselves to just have that whiff, a whiff of joy, a sip of, of joy, a sound that is pleasing to us. Like, ah, ah, if, if you’re suppressed and you’re making any sound a little like, hmm, a little hum, a little, uh, sigh.
[01:16:21] Um, in the privacy of your own space, that starts, what does that start doing? It starts building up pathways where a more of the fullness, literally
[01:16:31] Cathy: building neuro pathways. Yeah.
[01:16:33] Rick: Your own instrument has its own octaves and loudness. You know, I’m, I’m big on acoustic instruments more than amplified, um, you know, super loud ones.
[01:16:47] Uh, that’s more my nature.
[01:16:50] Cathy: Everybody, if it’s okay, however you wanna express it. Okay. I’d love to address the comment that just came in, if it’s okay.
[01:16:56] Rick: Sure.
[01:16:57] Cathy: Um, someone said maybe it’s more about, um, hold onto it. It’s not so much holding onto it, but others taking it from me. And, um, it mostly my mom. Um, like it’s not safe to share my joy with them.
[01:17:09] It may not be safe. So we like to have a positive outlook here and say that, you know, maybe they are trying to keep you safe. Maybe they learned that joy was something to be scary, just like we learned that joy is scary and they’re trying to protect you. They’re so enmeshed in that concept. They’re like trying to take it from you.
[01:17:27] That could be what’s happening. And another thing I’ve been studying a lot lately is that there’s people that have malicious empathy and. We don’t often wanna see that in people we love or are close to, but they maybe there is a certain pleasure they get from, I can’t have it, so I’m going to take it from you.
[01:17:47] So if they’re taking your joy regularly, one, you can just, you can just take, oh, they, they learned that it was scary. Maybe they’re trying to help keep me safe. Or you can ask why are they trying to take that joy away? And I, I’m really trying to, with myself, I’m really trying to be more with reality and go, people are sometimes malicious, even people we really are close to, even people we love.
[01:18:09] And when we look at the fact that they could be actually like, I don’t get to have it. You don’t get to have it if that is really what’s happening. It gives us leverage to go, you know what? You don’t get to take this from me. I don’t care. You’re being malicious. You may not be overtly malicious. You may have some good things mixed in there, but I think it’s really useful to try to.
[01:18:32] Look at reality as it is and go, ah, whether they mean well or not, they’re trying to take something nice for me and I get to say, fuck no. Excuse my French.
[01:18:42] Rick: So is that French?
[01:18:44] Cathy: I love the French. What? It’s
[01:18:47] Rick: Google Translate always.
[01:18:50] Cathy: So it that, that little bit of anger I get when I think about that gives me the energy to say, you know what, no, you don’t get to take it from me.
[01:18:59] Where? Versus like, when I’m just confused, I’m like, I don’t know what’s happening. Oh, it’s gone. But I’m like, oh, you are trying to take something nice from me for whatever reason. You do not get to have it. It is mine. Something to try on. Tapping really helps a lot around this stuff too. So I, I just wanna address that because I, I, people do try to take joy from each other and we wanna believe everyone means well, or maybe they don’t realize they’re doing it, but I think more people realize they’re doing it than we like to think.
[01:19:29] And maybe it’s, they’re protecting us, but I think sometimes there’s a little bit of a, like, I don’t, I don’t, I want you to hurt too. And I don’t think that’s really nice and I don’t think it should be rewarded by giving into them. So hopefully that’s not too triggered. Yeah.
[01:19:46] Rick: Well, that’s part of what we do.
[01:19:48] And just to acknowledge that I appreciate the depth that we’re going with this work, um, to stay present, which will be the focus about our, our next workshop. Um, I find this so useful to do this in a group where I can feel people riding with me on my joy. Where there’s a, a mutuality of shared energy. And like you said, Cathy, I, I had one particular person in my life, uh, growing up, uh, who took a malicious pleasure if I was celebrating an accomplishment and, uh, finding a tender spot and poking me hard enough there until the joy left me.
[01:20:46] And it’s, it’s tender to know that that person really, um, I wish it had been different because I didn’t share very much with other people. When that person was around. 'cause I learned pretty quickly this is painful. This is, this is so painful.
[01:21:04] Cathy: It’s, it’s literally not safe to share your joy with them. It was not
[01:21:07] Rick: true.
[01:21:08] Yeah. No, yeah. No, no, no celebrations allowed. Right. And how much that matters. And I, I, I do believe that that experience and others, we, those of you that have shown up live, thank you. Because this experience couldn’t happen for me. I’ll just speak for myself. It couldn’t happen for me without, um, other humans.
[01:21:37] The
[01:21:37] Cathy: co-creation,
[01:21:39] Rick: the co-creative energy, but also being sensitive. I feel the space that there’s, um, there’s a shared desire to have spaces where we can be. In our flavor of joy, our song, our artistry, our art, and maybe it’s not everybody’s song, maybe it’s not everybody’s thing. Some people don’t like dirt and moss and stuff.
[01:22:09] Okay. But I, but having an acceptance, the people that do Tapping, for example, since acceptance is one of the core doorways you walk through over and over again is acceptance. Acceptance that I have reactions that I wanna make. Response, I acceptance that, yeah, I learned, I’ve got superpowers of suppressing joy in myself.
[01:22:34] And sometimes those come out for people I love. And I, I’m in the process of, um, continually and always will be creating space where we can free our, free ourselves, free each other, and, um. That’s exciting to me. Um, yeah,
[01:22:54] Cathy: I love this exploration. I think it’s, when we are, haven’t thought about it, it’s not conscious.
[01:22:59] We’re just kind of going with what we learned and we don’t have the traction and ability to make a different life. So just the fact, you know, like even if you’re like, I didn’t get this, but I have some concepts, I’m, I’m not sure where people are on that. But just having an idea about it gives you traction.
[01:23:14] Something to grab on and say, I want something different. And start creating it for yourself and for the world. And the world definitely needs more joy. So thank you for being quiet.
[01:23:23] Rick: Little sips, little sips.
[01:23:24] Cathy: Yes.
[01:23:26] Rick: And then you know, the sitting in the hot tub of it, you know? Yes. Occasionally.
[01:23:33] Cathy: Yeah.
[01:23:33] Rick: So. Alright.
[01:23:35] Thank you Cathy. Thank you all.
[01:23:37] Cathy: Thank everyone. Thank you for all sharing. So vulnerably and so beautifully.
[01:23:41] Rick: Okay. Bye for now.
[01:23:44]
Let’s go gently, keep it real, and practice together. You don’t have to dig into the biggest trauma. We’re building skill—little sips, baby steps, more range in your body for joy.
Let a moment of kid‑joy come to mind. Pause it right there. Where is it in your body? Warmth, lightness, energy, softening, expansion… or tightness, vigilance? If you’re energy‑sensitive, check your field—expanding or bracing? We’re listening to sensation because the nervous system stores vivid, stimulus‑linked memory (SAM). When we work at the level of sensation, we get leverage.
Many of us linked joy with a crash—shame, anger, bee stings, broken arms, harsh faces at the table. No wonder a part of us dampens the joy before the crash can happen. Let’s meet that part.
General beliefs like “Joy isn’t safe” are sticky, but they’re anchored in specific moments. When we tap on a concrete memory (what you saw, heard, smelled, felt), the old linkage loosens. Let’s go there gently.
When others’ exuberance hits our raw spots, resentment spikes and we clamp down—on them or ourselves. We want savvy energy skills, not suppression.
Context matters. If play is allowed in the playroom and you need quiet to write, both truths can stand. “It’s allowed” loosens resentment and clarifies requests.
Enmeshment trained some of us to match the room. Skillful differentiation lets you have your own weather—and respect others’.
Sometimes folks poke the tender spot until the joy leaves. We can protect what’s good without going to war.
Joy has an edge—too long or too big and our system wants downshift. Instead of bracing for a crash, we can consciously transition.
We appreciate the depth you brought to this practice. More Vitamin J would be really good. Keep it small and real. Check in: Is it allowed? Sip what’s safe, protect what’s yours, and let your heart-body lead.
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